I think it's a mistake to treat every government service and public institution like a business. They're not.

The question is whether voters want to tax themselves because they believe the zoo...whether they attend or not .... is worth it. Surely thriving cultural institutions contribute to strong property values and an intangible sense of community that makes it a desirable place to live.

There's an argument to be made for the "worth" of the zoo as a cultural resource -- and an educational venue for generations of SE Michigan schoolkids -- that goes beyond a balance sheet.

Even if I don't go, I might vote to tax myself for it because I recognize its value.

That's easier to argue when you're employed, as I am, and not one of my many neighbors and friends who are not.......

But I don't believe it's fair to argue the zoo is a "failing" institution because it can't be supported solely through user fees. Our road system isn't failing (well, OK, I HAVE seen the potholes) simply because user fees don't support them; our public colleges aren't necessarily failing because they aren't purely tuition-supported and our public libraries aren't failures because taxpayers choose to support them.

As an aside, the privately funded Zoo Society funds a tremendous amount of the zoo's capital costs.....so combined with the entrance fees there is substantial private donor and user investment in the Detroit Zoo already......investment that's necessary if we want a zoo that's better than the privately funded ones like the one in the U.P. (can't think of it's name). I mean, hey, that's fun, but not exactly a world-class institution.

Do you go to the zoo? Do you think you should pay an admission fee, or instead that taxpayers should pay for you? User fees - there's a third concept to throw into the mix.

I've never been to the zoo. If I was interested in going I would expect to pay an admission fee, but frankly I'd rather go to a movie. No one's suggested imposing a new property tax to pay for me to go to the movie, however.

Are you saying that zoos add value to the community and so should get money beyond the user fees they can generate in voluntary free market exchanges? Well then, make the case that individuals or groups should voluntarily contribute even though they never go to the zoo. That would hearken back to a quaint custom popular when this country was truly free, a little thing we call civil society.

Who knows, maybe I'll be convinced by your argument and get out my checkbook. (To be honest I probably won't though, because I personally think zoos are gross and obsolete.)

He's kidding, right? Hey McD - why don't you talk to a restaurant owner sometime and ask him about a particular set of expenses that make an already-tough business nearly impossible. They're called "taxes," and he pays them up the ying-yang.

Then tell him you don't agree with him getting all those "subsidies." Then duck, because he may take a swing at you.

Um, how much tax does the zoo pay?

I didn't think so.

How much does the zoo benefit from core government services like roads, public safety, etc.?

I thought so.

You know pal, with respect, people like you are the reason the GOP is getting its butt kicked nationally, at the state level, and pretty soon in Oakland County, too: They've abandoned their principles.

"Yes I favor limited government and low taxes, but we need to make an exception for the zoo, for arts taxes, for goofy energy schemes, etc."

Here's a bit about coal subsidies which isn't a figment of my liberal imagination:

http://www.taxpayer.net/greenscissors/LearnMore/senatefossilfuelsubsidies.htm

I don't think NoviDemocrat needs an alt screen name, he seems to cause enough havoc here with just his own!

As for MichiganLiberal....its on my regular blog bookmark along with RightMichigan and a whole host of others from mainstream to freaky....

Me; no party affiliation. I'd pigeonhole myself a moderate with liberal leanings, a environmentalist/conservationist by profession (socialist, to you all?) a contrarian by nature and enjoy the devil's advocacy of give-and-take. Nothing personal, my right-wing friends! I still remember the days when the Dems and Reps talked to each other and people weren't permanently scowling.

Hey Burley, to be clear, I don't necessarily support all the so-called "subsidies" (my word) I suggested restaurants get (TIFAs and DDA's particularly gall me), just trying to point out that businesses and residents don't exist on some fictionarl self-sufficient libertarian island.

Galt...I love reading your stuff. You're damn smart whether I agree with you or not (let's see....generally, NOT!) Let me know when your Ferrari bond issue is on the ballot, I need to make that election.

I know this isn't necessarily a forum to debate policy...it's RightMichigan and it is what it is. But I appreciate that I can be a contrarian without getting blacklisted. It give me hope for civility! What is politics and public policy debate if it can't be fun sometimes!!

Cheers,