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    Who are the NERD fund donors Mr Snyder?

    Raise the curtain.

    Demoralizing the military?


    By Eric T, Section News
    Posted on Wed Jan 14, 2009 at 07:09:46 PM EST
    Tags: http:--news.yahoo.com-s-afp-20090107-ts_alt_afp-usmilitarygays_newsmlmmd (all tags)

    Let's talk about it, before the left criminalizes, free thought, free speech, or opposition to any democrat policy, with hate crimes bills, ect...

    For the folks who wanted to join the military, but thought it just wasn't gay enough for them.

    Obama has pledged to overhaul current law.

    http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/20090107/ts_alt_afp/usmilitarygays_newsmlmmd

    Gays in the military? What do YOU think?

    I can't picture anyone wanting to sign up, after this.

    "Don't ask don't tell" is good enough, I ain't been in the Army, but from movies, I've seen, It looks like these guys are living in real close quarters, group showers, bunk beds. This ain't really the kind of place to have gays trying to pick up guys, they should save that stuff for the gay bar.
     I can just picture a drill instructor that thinks your cute, getting real demanding.
    I think turning the military into a big homo orgy, is "change we don't need."

    Am I just too old fashioned or too conservative, If so, I'm sorry, but I really think they are going to scare young boys, from joining the Army, If they gotta worry about dropping the soap in the shower.

    < Having an impact? MEA publishes 48 pages on EAG | Gieleghem Riding Roughshod Over Macomb Republicans >


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    do you think a soldier would ask another soldier's (none / 0) (#1)
    by brandonhall on Thu Jan 15, 2009 at 04:14:59 PM EST
    sexual orientation before he allowed that soldier to save his life? If so, don't know what crowd you're hanging out with...

    Wow, Eric. Our men and women in the military are professional enough to serve with gays and lesbians openly. We're in the company of people like Putin and Medeved in bouncing gays from the military. Our best friends in the world, Israel and Great Britain, seem to be doing just fine. What a bigoted piece you wrote that demeans patriotic soldiers. Thankfully our Republic isn't subject to your wild assumptions that have no real facts behind them as we face multiple threats across the globe.

    From the Palm Center:

    In 1993, Congress banned known homosexuals from the military, convinced their presence could undermine morale and discipline. That year, Israel took exactly the opposite approach.

    All restrictions on gay and lesbian soldiers were dropped. Homosexuals in the Israel Defense Forces could join close-knit combat units or serve in sensitive intelligence posts. They were eligible for promotion to the highest ranks.

    Fourteen years later, Israelis are convinced they made the right decision.

    "It's a non-issue," said David Saranga, a former IDF officer and now Israel's consul for media and public affairs in New York. "There is not a problem with your sexual tendency. You can be a very good officer, a creative one, a brave one and be gay at the same time."

    Israel is among 24 countries that permit known gays to serve in the military, and its experience is giving fodder to opponents of the United States' controversial "Don't ask, don't tell" policy.

    In a recent opinion piece in the New York Times, Gen. John Shalikashvili, former chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, said that admitting gays had not hurt the IDF or any of the 23 other foreign militaries. With troops stretched thin by the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan, the United States should drop its ban on known gay service members after the new Congress has time to seriously consider the issue, Shalikashvili wrote.

    The retired general's view has drawn wide attention because he supported "don't ask, don't tell" when President Clinton devised it in 1993 as a compromise to the tough law Congress passed that year. Acknowledging that the issue still stirs "passionate feelings" on both sides, Shalikashvili said the debate about gays in the military "must also consider the evidence that has emerged over the last 14 years" - including that in Israel.

    As a country almost continuously at war, the Jewish state has always had mandatory conscription although known homosexuals were usually discharged before 1980. The IDF's first official statement on the matter, in 1983, allowed gays to serve but banned them from intelligence and top-secret positions.

    Opposition to the policy came to a head 10 years later when the chairman of the Tel Aviv University's chemistry department revealed the IDF had stripped him of his officer rank and barred him from sensitive research solely because he was gay. His testimony before a parliamentary committee created a public storm and forced the IDF to drop all restrictions on homosexuals.

    Since then, researchers have found, Israel's armed forces have seen no decline in morale, performance, readiness or cohesion.

    "In this security-conscious country, where the military is considered to be essential to the continued existence of the nation, the decision to include sexual minorities has not harmed IDF effectiveness," wrote Aaron Belkin and Melissa Levitt of the University of California, Santa Barbara.

    A brigadier general quoted in the pair's study said Israelis show a "great tolerance" for homosexual soldiers. One lesbian soldier said she was amazed that "people either thought my sexual orientation was cool or were indifferent to it."

    The California study also cited a survey of 17 heterosexual soldiers, two of whom said they would have a problem serving under a gay commander and three expressing concern about showering with a gay colleague. None, though, objected to gay soldiers in general, and as one officer put it, "They're citizens of Israel, like you and me. The sexual orientation of the workers around me doesn't bother me."

    As in the United States, though, many Israeli gays, including those in the military, are reluctant to come out of the closet until they think it is safe to do so.

    "All available evidence suggests that the IDF continues to be a place where many homosexual soldiers choose not to disclose their sexual orientation," the researchers found, noting that a psychiatrist said soldiers in her care still "suspect that if they come out they won't get a good position."

    Publicly, the IDF says that gay soldiers - estimated to be about 2 percent of the force - are screened the same as heterosexuals for promotions and sensitive positions. One officer said she had no problems rising through the ranks as an open lesbian.

    Despite obvious differences between the two countries, Israel's experience provides a relevant and encouraging lesson in what might happen if the United States lifted its ban on known gays in the services, the California researchers concluded. Not everyone agrees.

    Elaine Donnelly, president of the Michigan-based Center for Military Readiness, notes that American troops, unlike Israelis, are often deployed for long periods thousands of miles from home.

    "People who live in conditions of forced intimacy should not have to expose themselves to persons who might be sexually attracted to them," Donnelly said. "We respect that desire for human modesty and we respect the power of human sexuality."

    However, a recent poll of U.S. soldiers who served in Iraq and Afghanistan found that 75 percent said they would feel comfortable serving with gays. Of those who knew they had a gay colleague, two-thirds said it had no impact on their unit or personal morale.

    Americans in general are far more amenable to gays in the military since "don't ask, don't tell" was adopted in 1993. Polls in the last few years have shown at least 58 percent and as much as 70 percent favor repealing the ban on known homosexuals.

    "Of the minority of the public that still support the policy, that support is not about anything other than simple moral discomfort," said Belkin, director of Santa Barbara's Michael D. Palm Center for the Study of Sexual Minorities in the Military.

    "It's really about morality and religion and politics, and it's not about what's good for the military at this point."

    Susan Martin can be contacted at susan@sptimes.com.
    Policy worldwide

    Countries that allow gays to serve in the military:

    Australia, Austria, Bahamas, Belgium, Britain, Canada, the Czech Republic, Denmark, Estonia, Finland, France, Ireland, Israel, Italy, Lithuania, Luxembourg, the Netherlands, New Zealand, Norway, Slovenia, South Africa, Spain, Sweden and Switzerland

    Countries that ban gays from the military:

    Argentina, Belarus, Brazil, Croatia, Greece, Poland, Peru, Portugal, Russia, Turkey, United States and Venezuela.

    The list does not include those countries in which homosexuality is banned outright, such as Iran, Saudi Arabia and several other nations in the Middle East. These countries generally have no stated policy on gays in the military because they do not allow or acknowledge the presence of gays at all.


    • One thing by jgillmanjr, 01/15/2009 04:37:26 PM EST (none / 0)
    • BrandonHall by Eric T, 01/16/2009 08:52:03 AM EST (none / 0)
      • My mistake by Eric T, 01/17/2009 08:58:21 AM EST (none / 0)
    Gays In Military (none / 0) (#3)
    by Rougman on Thu Jan 15, 2009 at 05:11:53 PM EST
    Let me just say that having never been in the military and also being a card-carrying charter member of the very heterosexual alliance, that I am only stating a humble opinion.  

    Don't ask don't tell (DADT) does not prohibit gays from joining the military.  There are gays in the military right now, showering next to those that are not gay.  Until DADT's inception, gays were summarily disallowed from serving.  DADT changed that, though it stopped far short of actively recruiting gays and allowing those gays already in the military to openly declare their sexuality to their superior officers and the mess hall.  

    Having said that, I think that the military should be a place that evolves on its own.  I see no benefit in using our armed services as a venue in which to force progressive policies not specifically aimed at bettering the military itself.  The military operates, for good reason, generally outside of society. It has its own rules and regulations. It is not a laboratory built for the experimentation of politicians.  

    Having said that, when the military gets to a point in time that gays would not be an issue to most people in the military, the change probably could be made with no harm done.  But that assessment can only be made accurately by those military.

    Until then the politicians should butt out, even ones with unusually large auras.  

    Great point Gillman (none / 0) (#5)
    by Eric T on Fri Jan 16, 2009 at 08:40:01 AM EST
    The left has been trying to turn an individual's behavior into a civil rights issue.

    It doesn't even come close to discrimination based on Race or Gender.

    It would be like someone demanding civil rights for their drug use, or bad gambling habits. Then demanding that every institution in the country, has to accept it as normal, then giving that group special preferential treatment, shielding them from being "offended" with hate crimes bills.

     

    The generals should decide this not politicians (none / 0) (#7)
    by Republican Michigander on Fri Jan 16, 2009 at 11:23:06 AM EST
    I did not serve in the military. I have no opinion on this one way or the other. If the soldiers don't have a problem with it, then I don't have a problem with it.

    There are other issues of more significant importance.

    • RM by goppartyreptile, 01/20/2009 12:12:47 AM EST (none / 0)
    Israel and Great Britain (none / 0) (#8)
    by brandonhall on Fri Jan 16, 2009 at 03:46:28 PM EST
    have elite military forces... To correlate sexuality with military smarts and strength is just a losing argument. No evidence indicates that the 75% of our troops who support repealing don't ask, don't tell are sending us on a path of military erosion...

    We also spend more money on Defense than I believe the next closest 21 or 31 countires combined, so that may have more to do with our military power than the military being a beacon of heterosexuality.

    Our soldiers are heroes,putting Country First so we don't have to serve. The fringe who wants to continue this policy gets smaller and smaller every year, and will be an afterthought in 5 or 10 years.

    I hope we as a party don't let this issue dominate in Washington this year. The American people will deliver a thunderous verdict nationwide in 2010 if the EricT's of the world win over, and the economy and other priorities are swept under the rug.

    afghanistan and pakistan are still full of taliban (none / 0) (#9)
    by brandonhall on Fri Jan 16, 2009 at 03:50:28 PM EST
    And I don't think we've defeated the Taliban, by any means. So, WE haven't done that either....in 7 years...

    Soldiers are NOT cowards (none / 0) (#11)
    by leondrolet on Fri Jan 16, 2009 at 06:05:31 PM EST
    I don't believe many soldiers are cowardly enough to tremble at the soap being dropped in the shower.

    These men and women are tough patriots who face death to serve and defend their country.

    Any soldier who feels "demoralized" or scared because he or she is serving with a gay person would probably be too skittish for real combat.

    Let the politicians, social engineers, right-wingers and left-wingers vent their fears, concerns and agendas.

    Let the soldiers serve their country. I bet the majority of soldiers don't care enough to let it affect their service.

    Why the need for Change? (none / 0) (#12)
    by Eric T on Fri Jan 16, 2009 at 07:39:25 PM EST
    Change for the sake of change?
    Change for the sake of politics?

    Most of the guys I work with were in the service, the old timers talk about the days where they put saltpeter in the food, to keep the guys off each other. They clearly have had problems with homosexuality it in the past. The military has a good reason for the policy, would be my guess? I imagine if they were to describe their reasons in detail, it would be to vulgar to write on this blog.

     BrandonHall- saying the "Eric T's" of the country.
    Well we were there to ban gay marriage in Michigan, and many other states, including California. I think there is a large number of us, Many of us were raised, as Christians, and thru out our lives been taught, traditional values that state, homosexuality is a abomination to God. Many in the service, going into battle, might choose to have a strong relationship with God, because at the end of the day, if they lose the battle, they will be standing before Jesus Christ and they will be judged.

    You make it sound as if the whole country, is ready to go "gay". When,In fact alot of democrats, are disgusted, with the fact their party, is the party of gay issues, I hear it all the time, I meet alot of blacks that always vote democrat, but they are devout Christians and really struggle with the party line on the social issues.

    Constitution guides not bible (none / 0) (#13)
    by brandonhall on Sat Jan 17, 2009 at 01:23:58 AM EST
    EricT: This may be news to you, but our military does not fight for the BIBLE, IT FIGHTS FOR THE CONSTITUTION, our nations legal structure. And no, I am not saying some soldiers are not motivated by biblical principals for their great service to our country, and yes I recognize some religous foundation in the founding documents and culture. However, there is no religous test for our military, it is open to Jews, Muslims, Atheists, Evangelicals,Prostestants, Catholics,and any other type of religion or demomination. Or non believer.

    Should we revamp military code to reflect thse bible passages? Lets repeal the Constitutional passage prohibiting a religous test for public office! Prostestants ONLY!!! Where do we draw the line?

    ***BIBLE BANS Polyester, or any other fabric blends. The Bible doesn't want you to wear polyester. Not just because it looks cheap. It's sinfully unnatural.

    Leviticus 19:19 reads, "You are to keep My statutes. You shall not breed together two kinds of your cattle; you shall not sow your field with two kinds of seed, nor wear a garment upon you of two kinds of material mixed together."

    Deuteronomy 25:11-12.

    "If two men, a man and his countryman, are struggling together, and the wife of one comes near to deliver her husband from the hand of the one who is striking him, and puts out her hand and seizes his genitals, then you shall cut off her hand; you shall not show pity."

    Hope you don't like Red Lobster: Leviticus 11:10-19 - (6) "But anything in the seas or the rivers that has not fins and scales, of the swarming creatures in the waters and of the living creatures that are in the waters, is an abomination to you. They shall remain an abomination to you; of their flesh you shall not eat, and their carcasses you shall have in abomination. Everything in the waters that has not fins and scales is an abomination to you."

    And I'm a Christian too, so don't try to insinuate some holier than thou attitude in your response. I HAVE STILL YET TO SEE ANY EVIDENCE THAT ALLOWING OPENLY GAY PEOPLE TO SERVE IN THE MILITARY WOULD CAUSE ANY HARM TO OUR EXCELLENT STRNGTH.

    Common Sense (none / 0) (#17)
    by Brady on Tue Jan 20, 2009 at 01:55:43 PM EST
    I think there's a lumping of a number of different things into the catagory of "gays in the military" and common sense is taking a back seat to politics.

    Does gay sex belong in the military?  No.  Not any more or any less than straight sex.  The military has many other rules on sexual conduct that apply to everyone -- gay or straight. Officers are not permitted to fraternize with enlistees. Sex is barred on bases except for married personnel in their living quarters. Even off-site sex is regulated.

    Should same-sex sexual harassment be punished.  Absolutely.  This works in both directions; unwelcome homosexual advances and anti-gay sexual harrassment.  Neither should be tolerated.

    Should people who are primarily sexually attracted to those of their same gender not be able to truthfully answer questions about the girlfriend or boyfriend back home and lie about finding some actor or actress hot in or to maintain cover?  I imagine in a couple decades this will seem as stupid a question as the fears about racial integration were 60 years ago.  I can't speak for women, but my guess is that very few hetrosexual guys under the age of 35 would have a problem knowingly sharing group living quarters with another soldier who was homosexual.

    And those soldiers who are offended about living with homosexual soliders for religious reasons are going to face hundreds of other things in the military to be offended about.  It's not a job for the easily offended.

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