I appreciate this site and the opinions given. I also respect this report from Orlando and the confirmation of what we all already knew concerning "elite" Tea Party so called conservatives and their bubble building handlers.

What I don't understand is the willingness of so many conservatives to readily believe that conservative non-profits in general are not out for anybody but themselves and/or their so called 'careers' when they bring themselves (down in their eyes) to meet or manipulate the masses. Go to an "it's all about our kids" meeting where either of these group's leaders are present and simply ask a tough question related to any of the above or your own.

I brought up the recent unanimous Republican vote on POBs (just before the election in '12) to illustrate Michigan citizen's limited (or more accurately 'zero') interest in legislative affairs involving literally billions in future taxpayer dollars.
If this legislation (which was widely discussed in Lansing and elsewhere in 'non-peon' circles for literally years beforehand) was brought up before on this site or in any other conservative oriented conversation anywhere in Michigan during that period...I apologize. If not, what younger people here in Michigan are saying is this:
 If a Tea Partier can't even have an honest discussion in regards to legislation that contains the phrase "no vote of the people required" http://michiganvotes.org/2012-SB-1129 ..and said law involves literally billions of dollars of future obligations on THEIR part (not to mention future needed infrastructure projects cancelled due to same)...they view the current conservative movement as being less than honest here in Michigan. They view the "good cop/bad cop" (Schuette/Snyder) benefit charade currently being played out in Detroit as being no different than the (cough) "non-bankrupt" style POBs that are about to be rammed through in every Michigan county 'eligible' to saddle their grandchildren with the same burden.

"..As for juiced pensions, I have argued consistently for a 100% and complete change over to defined contributions ever since I had the most basic understanding of what that is.  POB (Pension Obligation Bonds) efforts are a potential disaster waiting to happen however.  Government in ANYONE's hands has the ability to view a positive cashflow as a means to expansion of services.  A POB might actually trigger growth in general government operations in small communities.  

"...Otherwise the way things are, contracts are contracts until a bankruptcy judge says they are not.  We cannot however continue the same bad practices, and some of the younger generations will in fact be paying for the sins of the father (so-to-speak)..."

The problem that young people have with this analysis is that "contracts" aside...their counties and municipalities are already bankrupt. They also understand that 'closing a pension plan' does absolutely nothing to somebody already retired and making more than they ever did working (to TPers, these people do not exist in the huge numbers that they do in their own neighborhoods). Most TPers with even a rudimentary understanding of math or how expensive the proper management (generation to generation) of basic small government infrastructure indeed is realize that it will take 100's of millions in each county to even now properly fix. Add an unfunded "liability" of often 100s of millions more and yeah...you're bankrupt. As for your insistence that POBs might trigger "growth" in the community as opposed to saddling your kids with insurmountable debt?....I would  advise that you read the following again and tell me why the MCPP changed their mind ('closing a plan' is not akin  to fixing a problem...it's the whole 'closing the door after the horse left the barn' thing) http://www.mackinac.org/12085 POBs

"...Shared sacrifice?  I understand where you are coming from (I think), but have not seen any suggestions how to resolve, so will wait to see your versions.  I am assuming you have not commented or been vocal or organized in any way up until this commentary.  Correct me if I am wrong...."

Shared Sacrifice has the same definition that it had in WWII. Nobody escapes the cuts...nobody is immune from the discussion. The conversation starts (since no tea partier will admit that we are flat out broke) with publicly naming those who for any given reason are (somehow) immune from personally sacrificing anything. The math gets much easier from there. If social security recipients who evidently picked the wrong society to vote and live in equate themselves with handicapped kids or injured veterans...so be it..so long as they are forced to publicly make that declaration. We simply add up everybody's government check who doesn't feel the need to sacrifice...and see if that number is any different than the number we cannot pay now. The reality is this: If you do not force somebody receiving government help of any kind (deserved or not) to receive only a portion of what is actually available...you will never force them to pressure their legislators to eliminate those effectively preventing them from receiving a larger share of the pie. Your comment on being vocal or organized in any way is interesting as it speaks again as to my observation of gray haired tea partiers being so out of touch with the younger generation taxed (literally) with fixing their generational mess for the balance of their oh-so-different upcoming lives (no offense implied). Younger conservatives (including myself) have spoken out. We see shared sacrifice as not only our only salvation but the only manner in which we can be assured that no future generation attempts the same folly. Kids don't change government because they witness grandpa and grandma living the high life off of a government long ago unable to pay its (cough) "obligations" to them. They demand change when grandma and grandpa are forcibly driven to share in their sacrifice giving them a first hand view of a life that they themselves would never choose to emulate through the same management techniques (poor voting choices) or (with shared sacrifice) exact opposite now in-their-face disastrous results.

"..And Clint's hot dog stand is a business, and he was  licensed to operate there. Conspiratorial pondering is likely misplaced.  The organizations like AFP are funded heavily by Americans who see government being corrupted by power and money, and logically must fight such corruption with same.  Consider that at least two break out sessions in the Orlando events addressed 'cronyism', and the Mackinac center does the same regularly, it seems the operational motives are clearer than you posit...."

...so these are obviously 'ghosts' in the last few seconds of this clip and how many others on the web?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N1PjVILHNa4
Would you like me to quote AFP themselves as to exactly who was under there as well...or would you simply like to shoot up the messenger some more and pull the tired ol' typical crap of attempting to discredit those who simply attempt to speak the truth?

Who were you on that day...AFP so-called "security"? Perhaps the same guy who came running over to the 2nd tent well after the first one was torn down (as planned with the soon to be $30,000 richer vendor-that-nobody-knew-about inside)...claiming to have just ripped off everything identifying you as such...so that nobody knew who you were?

I crawled out right next to a reporter...quickly gave him a piece of my mind...turned around to see Hagestrom on a table...and then was immediately 'crowd surfed' by the MSP on horseback OVER the tent remains without a single concern for anybody who might've been laying in there.

I find it utterly amazing as to the lengths that people will go to help cover up what actually happened that day....even WITH more video evidence than what has probably ever been filmed for a historic event of this magnitude.

We lost our freedom to assemble and speak that week here in Michigan folks. At least quit lying to your kids about it...or better yet, quit telling them that "you're doing it all for them..." when they can't even 'hope' to do a damn thing that you ever did...and you know it.

Is that what you're going to tell your kids the next time they have to stand up for something such as freedom to assemble and speak? (although we couldn't even encourage AFP to do the latter the last two days that I was there...which was frankly disgusting and cemented the nothing-but-political-pawns feeling).