"..I disagree that there is limited interest in legislation or the 'peons' bringing up the subject. Often I do see management of time being the operational effort, but when a limited number of persons are available, there is a genuine willingness to listen. Its one of the reasons I try not to interact all the time with the special guests brought in to such affairs. It gives others a better opportunity to meet and exchange ideas..."
I brought up the recent unanimous Republican vote on POBs (just before the election in '12) to illustrate Michigan citizen's limited (or more accurately 'zero') interest in legislative affairs involving literally billions in future taxpayer dollars.
If this legislation (which was widely discussed in Lansing and elsewhere in 'non-peon' circles for literally years beforehand) was brought up before on this site or in any other conservative oriented conversation anywhere in Michigan during that period...I apologize. If not, what younger people here in Michigan are saying is this:
If a Tea Partier can't even have an honest discussion in regards to legislation that contains the phrase "no vote of the people required" http://michiganvotes.org/2012-SB-1129 ..and said law involves literally billions of dollars of future obligations on THEIR part (not to mention future needed infrastructure projects cancelled due to same)...they view the current conservative movement as being less than honest here in Michigan. They view the "good cop/bad cop" (Schuette/Snyder) benefit charade currently being played out in Detroit as being no different than the (cough) "non-bankrupt" style POBs that are about to be rammed through in every Michigan county 'eligible' to saddle their grandchildren with the same burden.
"..As for juiced pensions, I have argued consistently for a 100% and complete change over to defined contributions ever since I had the most basic understanding of what that is. POB (Pension Obligation Bonds) efforts are a potential disaster waiting to happen however. Government in ANYONE's hands has the ability to view a positive cashflow as a means to expansion of services. A POB might actually trigger growth in general government operations in small communities.
"...Otherwise the way things are, contracts are contracts until a bankruptcy judge says they are not. We cannot however continue the same bad practices, and some of the younger generations will in fact be paying for the sins of the father (so-to-speak)..."
The problem that young people have with this analysis is that "contracts" aside...their counties and municipalities are already bankrupt. They also understand that 'closing a pension plan' does absolutely nothing to somebody already retired and making more than they ever did working (to TPers, these people do not exist in the huge numbers that they do in their own neighborhoods). Most TPers with even a rudimentary understanding of math or how expensive the proper management (generation to generation) of basic small government infrastructure indeed is realize that it will take 100's of millions in each county to even now properly fix. Add an unfunded "liability" of often 100s of millions more and yeah...you're bankrupt. As for your insistence that POBs might trigger "growth" in the community as opposed to saddling your kids with insurmountable debt?....I would advise that you read the following again and tell me why the MCPP changed their mind ('closing a plan' is not akin to fixing a problem...it's the whole 'closing the door after the horse left the barn' thing) http://www.mackinac.org/12085 POBs
"...Shared sacrifice? I understand where you are coming from (I think), but have not seen any suggestions how to resolve, so will wait to see your versions. I am assuming you have not commented or been vocal or organized in any way up until this commentary. Correct me if I am wrong...."
Shared Sacrifice has the same definition that it had in WWII. Nobody escapes the cuts...nobody is immune from the discussion. The conversation starts (since no tea partier will admit that we are flat out broke) with publicly naming those who for any given reason are (somehow) immune from personally sacrificing anything. The math gets much easier from there. If social security recipients who evidently picked the wrong society to vote and live in equate themselves with handicapped kids or injured veterans...so be it..so long as they are forced to publicly make that declaration. We simply add up everybody's government check who doesn't feel the need to sacrifice...and see if that number is any different than the number we cannot pay now. The reality is this: If you do not force somebody receiving government help of any kind (deserved or not) to receive only a portion of what is actually available...you will never force them to pressure their legislators to eliminate those effectively preventing them from receiving a larger share of the pie. Your comment on being vocal or organized in any way is interesting as it speaks again as to my observation of gray haired tea partiers being so out of touch with the younger generation taxed (literally) with fixing their generational mess for the balance of their oh-so-different upcoming lives (no offense implied). Younger conservatives (including myself) have spoken out. We see shared sacrifice as not only our only salvation but the only manner in which we can be assured that no future generation attempts the same folly. Kids don't change government because they witness grandpa and grandma living the high life off of a government long ago unable to pay its (cough) "obligations" to them. They demand change when grandma and grandpa are forcibly driven to share in their sacrifice giving them a first hand view of a life that they themselves would never choose to emulate through the same management techniques (poor voting choices) or (with shared sacrifice) exact opposite now in-their-face disastrous results.
"..And Clint's hot dog stand is a business, and he was licensed to operate there. Conspiratorial pondering is likely misplaced. The organizations like AFP are funded heavily by Americans who see government being corrupted by power and money, and logically must fight such corruption with same. Consider that at least two break out sessions in the Orlando events addressed 'cronyism', and the Mackinac center does the same regularly, it seems the operational motives are clearer than you posit...."
I was there for 3 solid days with AFP and frankly resent being accused of "conspiratorial pondering" when relating but a small part of what I experienced there. I find this an interesting description of the facts presented (which no one seemingly disputes) given the fact that this site has been accused very publicly of the same in the past...and didn't like it much either. If you desire a commentary section that actually seeks to glean first hand information from those 'outside' the glitzy world of the above article's focus... then I suggest that you refrain from shooting the messenger simply because your hosts that weekend would obviously 'expect' you to do so afterwards. The Right To Work protests were a sham on both sides of the aisle. They were particularly disturbing on 'our' side due to the fact that not one conservative voice in this state expressed outrage that AFP actually do something about it given their close relationship with legislators not to mention their first hand knowledge of the week's events.The citizens of Michigan were forever told that day to stay out of our state Capital lest one end up under a collapsed tent with knives slashing above your head...within spitting distance of the largest Capital security force ever assembled in Michigan history. If that fact is "conspiratorial" so be it. If the fact that AFP never lobbied our legislators to even so much as publicly comment on or institute changes which could assure the general public that none of what happened that week would indeed ever happen again is "OK" with you...then please don't comment on the freedom to assemble or speak with any authority ever again.
And if you think Michigan Republicans aren't as happy as their "There Will Be Blood" (unchallenged) colleagues that concerned conservatives such as myself will never (obviously) visit 'their' place of business ever again?
You've been kidding yourself for about 9 months now.
